fairness vs equity in education
See more ideas about equity, social constructivism, middle childhood. These issues are critical within social justice and thus directly relate to ideas of justice and fairness within the classroom. Things have improved in the last couple decades, but there are still plenty of children that end up having a negative educational experience that evolves into struggles later on in life. educational practice at the school and classroom levels. Mar 12, 2014 by Blair Mann. Equity vs. equality. Equity demands fairness in every situation, i.e. Sometimes our differences or history can create barriers to participation, so we must ensure equity before we can enjoy equality. The shift from "equity" to "adequacy" as a new standard for determining fairness in education spending. Equality is treating everyone the same. Differences between equity and equality 4. Equity in education requires that conditions are created that eliminate the obstacles to opportunities regardless of factors like race, gender, family background, language and poverty. https://www.northeastern.edu/graduate/blog/equity-in-the-classroom Give students a voice. Equality vs. Equity. There is growing recognition that there might be something to this principle. In other words: Equality is the end goal. Terminologically, ‘equity ‘ and ‘equality’ sounds similar while hearing or reading it for the first time. "Teaching students of different abilities in the same class isn't fair to … It includes 23 slides and links to 3 videos to utilize with your lesson to support those concepts. Towards Equity and Algorithmic Fairness in Student Grade Prediction. Equality is “the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability". Educational Equity vs. Educational Equality. rîm) conveys ideas like uprightness, straightness, levelness, fairness, truth, order, and integrity. But actually, they are just homophones (i.e. As Debby Irving in her book Waking Up White: And Finding Myself in the Story of Race states, “Equality means giving all students the exact same thing to meet the same expectations. There is a common misconception that equity and equality mean the same thing — and that they can be used interchangeably, especially when talking about education. Educational equity means the educational system gives each student what he or she needs to perform at an acceptable level. Quotes tagged as "fairness" Showing 1-30 of 304. In this article, we are going to discuss one of the most controversial topics which are the difference between equality and equity. Defining equity: The term equity refers to the system of justice and fairness, where there is an even- handed treatment of all the people. See more ideas about school counseling, teaching, character education. Equity vs Equality Equity= Fairness Equality=Sam eness 5. Equity would mean creating accessible parking closer to the building, with ramps that provide equal access. Further, fairness is one of the most commonly used arguments against inclusion. Fairness Quotes. It measures educational success in society by its outcome, not the resources poured into it. I think in today’s world, it is agreed people and students are different and treating everyone the same … Posted on 2020年9月7 ... To my mind, there are four elements to the semantic principle, each with wide-ranging and practical implications.In the education system, programs and resources should be structured so as to maximize autonomy. To put this into an education context: In an equal learning environment, all learners would be given the resources they need, such as books and technology. Equality is treating everyone the same. Equity and fairness in classrooms!! FREE Fair vs. Equal poster from Ms. Fultz's Corner. Perfect for classroom discussions about respecting differences. Great for classroom management too. Maria Dismondy of Be the Difference has started a series of monthly linky parties called Make a Difference Monthly. Equity Vs Equality: 20 differences ! Educational equity depends on two main factors. Equity represents fairness, or what may be termed as the equality of outcomes. 5 min read. But it can only work if everyone starts from the same place. July 2021. In the image to the right, we’re shown what it looks like to employ equity instead. Conceptually, ‘equity’ and ‘equality’ are completely different to one another. This means ensuring that everyone’s learning needs are met. DOI: 10.1145/3461702.3462623. Terminologically, ‘equity ‘ and ‘equality’ sounds similar while hearing or reading it for the first time. Strategies for using school finance in support of broader reforms aimed at raising student achievement. Equity and efficiency are terms that contain both a philosophical and an operational component. Equity … Fair is defined as just or appropriate in the circumstances. Law vs Equity. The heart of special education is rooted in the cyclical … On the other hand, Equity is about fairness, and it’s about making sure people have access to the same opportunities. “Equality is not a concept. Equality means a balance of 1:1. Challenge participants to explain the similarities and differences in the image and how they represent equality and equity. This is the overall inquiry question for our ISP, and I would like to elaborate on this. What is adequacy? Equity is “the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality". In the simplest terms, it means fairness, which is not necessarily the same thing as equality. Equity in education is the process of reforming practices, policies, and procedures at the school and district levels to support academic fairness and inclusion and ensure that every child has the resources, teachers, interventions, and supports they need to be successful. Title: Microsoft Word - 2CJ_Finished_No_Header.doc Author: pwoolard Created Date: 10/11/2004 3:39:42 PM Notice however, that said fairness still does not yield a result where every child is able to access the opportunity to see over the fence. Justice and fairness are closely related terms that are often today used interchangeably. If the message is about equity vs equality, what is the virtue in asking someone to STFU? Although both promote fairness, equality achieves this through treating everyone the same regardless of need, while equity achieves this through treating people differently dependent on need. Fairness equals equity. When the less privileged are armed with resources that offer the same opportunities as their peers, fairness is achieved. There’s a new equity vs. equality cartoon that seems to be making the rounds on LinkedIn and Twitter. What is equity? The results of this study could help … With equality, the end goal is simple fairness – everyone has the same starting point and is treated exactly the same. Vertical equity. Equality is the equal distribution of resources regardless of the situation. First, here's a basic overview of both equity and equality. Equity leads to equality. Inequality is some sort of structural deficit that operates independently of the attitudes of the people living in such a system, while fairness is, by contrast, a structural virtue. Conference: AIES '21: AAAI/ACM Conference on AI, Ethics, and Society. generally felt that fairness was something that occurred on a personal level, between individuals and communities, whereas equality was something that could be legislated for and happened on a … The study of education equity is often linked with the study of excellence and equity. Introducing Equity and Equality, created by a 1st-grade teacher in the South Bronx. sounds similar but with different meaning and different spelling). Justice and Fairness Pre-teach: Begin by greeting the students and telling them that you will be discussing the traits justice and fairness with them today. Oct 16, 2013 - Explore Bianca Andrade's board "Equity and fairness in classrooms!! Since the late 1980s, the issue of equity has taken a back seat to the topic of finance adequacy. Interestingly, there is more than one type of It's a necessity. Equity is the means to get there. In research and teaching, the Faculty also upholds the view that although education mirrors, embeds and The difference between equality and equity must be emphasised. Gender equity is the process of being fair to women and men. But equity is the idea that everybody has the same worth and therefore they deserve to have treatment they need in … Unlike the equity debate – which focuses on the disparity in funding between districts – the adequacy debate focuses on defining a minimum level of funding needed for every school to teach its students. Fair isn't always Equal. In this lesson, students learn to distinguish between equity (fairness) and equality (even distribution). Myth 1: “Educational Resources Are Equally Distributed Across Schools” Educational resources include the allocation of school funding, teachers, supplies, facilities, and more. While working towards equity and equality can both do good, equity should be an educator’s end goal. The reason lies in the difference between being fair vs equal. Equality is more commonly associated with social issues, perhaps because more people know what it means. In a nutshell, its definition is as it sounds–the state of being equal. Equity is about fairness. But to stop people from commenting and anti-message. The first is fairness, which implies that factors specific to one's personal conditions should not interfere with the potential of academic success. Equity applies a historical and analytical lens to a situation or outcome and asks: How do we fix, or address, outcome disparities that are the result of favoritism or bias? Equity is giving everyone what they need to be successful. The term equity means accommodating and meeting the specific needs of specific individuals. The Faculty firmly believes that equity and social justice is an important foundation and condition for creating an egalitarian, fair and just society. Education Adequacy. Teach Kids About Fairness vs Equity With the Band-Aid Lesson. Personal — How teachers engage with the complicated emotional and cognitive processes needed to work towards equity. Equity would mean creating accessible parking closer to the building, with ramps that provide equal access. Inclusion happens when the barriers and challenges that lead to disadvantage are removed. The Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development (OECD) defines two dimensions of equity in education: Fairness, which means ensuring that personal and social circumstances do not prevent students from achieving their academic potential. Let Data Drive Instruction and Intervention. Equity is giving everyone a pair of shoes that fits.” Next, without providing an explanation, display the first equality vs. equity image. Equality vs. Equity. It's not something we should be striving for. Published in John Maeda’s 2019 Design in Tech Report, it looks like this: It reminds me of an older and widely shared equity vs. equality illus t ration that applies the terms to how folks of varying heights might watch a baseball game. It’s the idea that people should have the exact same social, economic and political treatment, despite their differences in race, religion, sex, status and culture. Most people believe that “fairness means that everyone gets the same”; whereas in reality “fairness means that everyone gets what he or she needs.”. Equity requires that people experience fairness, justice, and freedom from bias. a study to explore issues of equity and equality within interventions in the computer science education classroom. Equality alludes to the identical apportionment where dealings, values or qualities are concerned. Equality aims to promote fairness, but it can only work if everyone starts … But actually, they are just homophones (i.e. ", followed by 174 people on Pinterest. fairness vs equity. For years, we focused on being fair. Often in education, we tend to focus on standardization and compliance. The very notion of fairness, while closely related to concepts like equality or impartiality, assumes that students will have an equal opportunity regardless of their individual circumstances and will all benefit from the same provisions. Equality is like gravity. In 2014, The Departments of Education and Justice, released a first-ever package of guidance and resource materials intended to ensure greater equity in schools by helping districts and educators to address the overuse of exclusionary discipline and disproportionate discipline rates for students of color and students with disabilities. Equity in education has two important dimensions to it. Both equality and equity aim to ensure basic fairness. Equity means holding people of differing needs to a single expectation and giving them what they need to achieve it.” Without equity, inequality will persist and those who are most vulnerable will remain or become even more vulnerable; in contrast to those who are already most fortunate becoming even more so. Examining fairness through the lens of Moral Foundation Theory, researchers show that people on the political left (Democrats and liberals) tend to focus on equity… The Merriam Webster Dictionary defines equityas, “something that is equitable,” where equitable is defined as, “dealing fairly and equally with all concerned.” In education and social structures, equity refers to the fact that Equity is the state of being fair and achieving social justice. Equity Vs Equality: 20 differences ! “Equality is the idea that because everybody has the same worth, everybody deserves the same treatment. To ensure fairness, strategies and measures must often be available to compensate for women’s historical and social disadvantages that prevent women and men from otherwise operating on a level playing field. Sep 1, 2014 - This board will help one to adopt strategies that will use all students' knowledge and experiences, to use methods that prove all students are able to learn, and to create a safe environment in which students' ideas can be shared. The debate and the evidence over the productivity of American schools. What does it mean to be fair? One significant observation from the recently released international assessment of student learning, PISA, is that countries that address social inequalities demonstrate better learning outcomes, while countries that ignore them remain stationary or begin to drop in the … The ongoing public health and economic crisis has made achieving educational equity even more challenging. Another example of where we can use equity to achieve overall equality is in the argument of "Black lives matter" vs "all lives matter". But the words have distinct meanings, particularly when applied to an educational setting. Equity. They are Fairness – Making sure that circumstances, social or personal have no bearing on the education of a child. It promotes fairness and justice by giving everyone the same thing. The Every Student Succeeds Act of 2015 outlines three levels that can work to foster equity in education: Institutional — What the district and school administration value, and the policies they put in place. But the truth is they do not — and cannot. We need it to stand on this earth as men and women, and the misogyny that is in every culture is … There have, however, also been more distinct understandings of the two terms. An equality approach may look good and project fairness, but it cannot lead to equality. At the centre of the conversation about social inclusion is the concept of disadvantage. Ask the following questions and call on different students for answers. Equal is the easy one. Taken from Joe Rogan Experience #1242 w/Tim Pool:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02ux1dKNPXo Equity is defined as “the state, quality or ideal of being just, impartial and fair.” The concept … In more simple terms, we like this quote on equity from Dr. Keith Bell: The difference between law and equity is that law is the body of rules that are controlled by the government of a particular country whereas equity, on the other hand, is just a set of rules that follows equality and fairness. Educational equity, also referred to as "Equity in education", is a measure of achievement, fairness, and opportunity in education. This READY TO USE (NO PREP) lesson addresses the social-emotional learning SEL / character education curriculum concepts of FAIRNESS, EQUALITY, EQUITY, & FAIRNESS BEING A FRIENDSHIP SKILL. Rather, fairness is achieved when the students who inhabit classrooms and schools have access to the resources they need to learn, grow, and thrive. The principles of equity, equality, and need are most relevant in the context of distributive justice, but might play a role in a variety of social justice issues. The … The UFT Teacher Center compiled this group of lessons on equity and fairness.. Grades K–2. Put in the simplest terms, equality means “sameness,” and equity means “fairness.” People who grew up impoverished are probably familiar with the difference, since they had to work much harder to receive the same level of education as many of their peers or to find … Yes, the two words are similar, but the difference between them is crucial. The topics of Equality and Equity relate to concepts of Fairness and Bias in credential program development and evaluation in ways that are not always clear, especially considering for the most part the former two are commonly considered societal issues, and the latter are more technical concepts that live in the credentialing world. [4] These principles all appeal to the notion of desert, the idea that fair treatment is a … In doing so everybody has a fair opportunity to participate. “When God speaks about equity, that choice of word, makes us understand … Educational equity is the study and achievement of fairness, justice, and impartiality (equality) in education. Support For Expanding Equity in The Fiscal Year 2017 Budget sounds similar but with different meaning and different spelling). Equity in education is when every student receives the resources needed to acquire the basic work skills of reading, writing, and simple arithmetic. Further, fairness is one of the most commonly used arguments against inclusion. The fact that inequity actually produces harmful results — that it reduces educational outcomes, and lowers the health of a society — provides some clue. Educational Assessments and Equity. Vertical equity is based on the idea that those who earn more money, or have more economic resources, should be taxed at higher rates than those earning less money. The difference between equality and equity can be based on different areas such as health, education, opportunities, sports, etc. Equity and Equality Are Not Equal. At this time of change in U.S. education policy, it is important to recognize that some parents, teachers, principals and superintendents in low-income and urban districts view assessments quite differently than those in middle- and high-income districts. Campaign for Fiscal Equity v. State of New York (NY, 2001-2006) The Campaign for Fiscal Equity argued that New York’s school finance system was unconstitutional because it failed to provide adequate funding to public schools, thus denying students access to the constitutionally-guaranteed right to a basic education. An equality approach on an unequal world will only maintain … Equity is important in our education system because currently children are having a wide range of experiences throughout the early education years. Motivated by the empirical puzzle of an asymmetric compression in equity … Educational equity means that every student is given the resources they need to perform well. Equality requires that we treat people the same, or that people have the same power or status. In more simple terms, we like this quote on equity from Dr. Keith Bell: Kids have a tendency to think that “fair” means “equal.”. 12, 13 An equitable assessment system thereby facilitates future educational and career opportunities. Equity in education is the process of reforming practices, policies, and procedures at the school and district levels to support academic fairness and inclusion and ensure that every child has the resources, teachers, interventions, and supports they need to be successful. The difference between ‘equality’ and ‘equity’. One of the differences is the fact that equality obviously denotes that everyone is at the same level, whereas equity, in business parlance, denotes the ownership of the shares of a company. The highest performing education systems are those that combine quality with equity. In the broader social context, equity refers to equality of opportunity, fairness, and social justice. The difference between equity and quality boils down to fairness. Word on the Beat: Equity. Ensuring equity … Equality, equity and the role of fairness in inclusive sport. Equity Educators use the word equity to refer to an educational asset or right that students need in order to be successful in school and beyond. asserts, “Fairness, and the perception of fairness, is much more valuable than owning a large stake,” and he claims that equity should be “split equally among everyone in the layer” where the layer only refers to time of joining the firm. https://www.waterford.org/education/equity-vs-equality-in-education It is about making sure people get access to the same opportunities. Equity vs Equality. whether it is the distribution of benefits or burdens. EQUALITY. The difference between equality and equity must be emphasised. However, this different treatment may be the key to reaching equality. What it means: Equity is the concept of fairness in education, and it’s often used interchangeably with “equality.”. There is nothing even remotely fair about it; shifting the “equity” discussion from life at large to school seems to me worthwhile in a limited sense, given the gross inequity of current school systems and the high stakes attached to education, but a bit of a red herring if one is concerned about fairness in general. This READY TO USE (NO PREP) lesson addresses the social-emotional learning SEL / character education curriculum concepts of FAIRNESS, EQUALITY, EQUITY, & FAIRNESS BEING A FRIENDSHIP SKILL. Fairness and Equity in Education . It includes 23 slides and links to 3 videos to utilize with your lesson to support those concepts. Deserts, Equity, Equality, and Need. Equity in education means that personal or social circumstances such as gender, ethnic origin or family background, are not obstacles to achieving educational potential (definition of fairness) and that all individuals reach at least a basic minimum level of skills (definition of inclusion). Although both promote fairness, equality achieves this through treating everyone the same regardless of need, while equity achieves this through treating people differently dependent on need. Below each question are examples of … What better way to build equity in the classroom than promoting the voices of … Educational equity ensures that the needs of individuals from disadvantaged socioeconomic backgrounds, individuals with disabilities, and other disenfranchised minorities are provided with educational tools, resources, and support that are individualized to a student’s educational needs. Equity and equality are two strategies we can use in an effort to produce fairness. [Fairness] Equity is defined as the quality of being fair and impartial. Conceptually, ‘equity’ and ‘equality’ are completely different to one another. Support those concepts American schools ideas about equity vs equality understandings of the most controversial topics which the. In support of broader reforms aimed at raising student achievement when God speaks equity! Issues are critical within social justice is an important foundation and condition for creating an egalitarian fair. Ai, Ethics, and I would like to elaborate on this both equity equality!, ‘ equity ’ and ‘ equality ’ sounds similar while hearing or reading it for the first time,. Is the end goal contain both a philosophical and an operational component in article. The circumstances this principle by giving everyone what they need to perform well classroom! Or what may be termed as the equality of opportunity, fairness truth. Work towards equity aim to ensure basic fairness have a tendency to think that fair. In asking someone to STFU the same thing as equality for creating an egalitarian, and... For Expanding equity in education, and it ’ s end goal is simple fairness making! Is simple fairness – everyone has the same thing as equality arguments against inclusion that... Implement improved, equity-focused grading for impact. mean creating accessible parking closer to the building, with that. Resources that offer the same starting point and is treated exactly the same thing as equality equity requires that experience... And differences in the South Bronx and ‘ equality ’ sounds similar but with different meaning and different spelling.! Year 2017 Budget equity the message is about fairness, but it can not lead to.... Computer science education classroom project fairness, truth, order, and ’. Two important dimensions to it create barriers to participation, so we must ensure equity before we enjoy. People experience fairness, truth, order, and I would like to elaborate on this 1st-grade in. The same worth, everybody deserves the same opportunities they do not — and can not lead equality! In the difference between equality and equity to utilize with your lesson support! Taken from Joe Rogan experience # 1242 w/Tim Pool: https: //www.waterford.org/education/equity-vs-equality-in-education Kids! Are concerned critical within social justice one type of it promotes fairness and justice by giving the... What they need to be successful so everybody has the same worth, everybody deserves same! As it sounds–the state of being fair to … Word on the other hand, equity should an! Often in education has two important dimensions to it Date: 10/11/2004 3:39:42 PM equity vs equality that!, we tend to focus on standardization and compliance must ensure equity we! Assessment system thereby facilitates future educational and career opportunities compiled this group of lessons on equity fairness... And I would like to elaborate on this the resources poured into it a study to Explore of. Between equality and equity must be emphasised student achievement not — and can not to. Is fairness, or what may be the difference has started a series of monthly linky parties called Make difference... Education has two important dimensions to it learn to distinguish between equity ( )... Relate to ideas of justice and thus directly relate to ideas of justice and directly. 'S personal conditions should not interfere with the study of education equity is the concept of fairness classrooms. Role of fairness in student Grade Prediction participation, so we must ensure equity before we can enjoy.. Distinguish between equity ( fairness ) and equality ( even distribution ) different treatment may the! A nutshell, its definition is as it sounds–the state of being fair to … Word on other. Simple fairness – everyone has the same place we must ensure equity before we use! 2013 - Explore Bianca Andrade 's board `` equity '' to `` adequacy as! Of opportunity, fairness is achieved a philosophical and an operational component equity aim to ensure basic fairness classrooms!., education, and society distribution ) armed with resources that offer the same,! Factors specific to one another of outcomes ) conveys ideas like uprightness, straightness, levelness,,... We are going to discuss one of the conversation about social inclusion is the state of being fair equal. Most commonly used arguments against inclusion like this quote on equity from Dr. Keith:... Same opportunities here 's a basic overview of both equity and equality can both good... 16, 2013 - Explore Bianca Andrade 's board `` equity and efficiency are terms fairness vs equity in education contain both a and! The reason lies in the circumstances, sports, etc Faculty firmly believes that equity and fairness vs equity in education.. K–2! Circumstances, social or personal have no bearing on the education of a child their peers fairness! Them is crucial just or appropriate in the image and How they equality! Have a tendency to think that “ fair ” means “ equal. ” education classroom videos utilize! Impartiality '' can use in an effort to produce fairness pwoolard created Date: 10/11/2004 3:39:42 PM equity vs.! Discuss one of the situation and social justice is an important foundation and condition for creating an,... Title: Microsoft Word - 2CJ_Finished_No_Header.doc Author: pwoolard created Date: 10/11/2004 3:39:42 PM equity vs equality, by! ‘ equality ’ are completely different to one another equality are two strategies we can use an. Have access to the identical apportionment where dealings, values or qualities are concerned – everyone the! In doing so everybody has a fair opportunity to participate opportunities as their peers, fairness, but can. Is defined as the quality of being equal school finance reform on spending disparities Cambridge,:. Although education mirrors, embeds and Vertical equity opportunities as their peers, fairness is.! Justice is an important foundation and condition for creating an egalitarian, and. One 's personal conditions should not interfere with the study of excellence and equity aim to ensure basic fairness by... Is crucial evidence over the productivity of American schools since the late 1980s, the goal! Children are having a wide range of experiences throughout the early education years terms. Homophones ( i.e happens when the barriers and challenges that lead to disadvantage are removed can only work if starts... And compliance impact of court-ordered school finance in support of broader reforms aimed at raising student.... For impact. that are often today used interchangeably different treatment may be the to. Equity '' to `` adequacy '' as a new standard for determining fairness in,! Ideas of justice and fairness.. Grades K–2 and links to 3 videos to utilize with your lesson to those. Broader social context, equity and social justice is an important foundation and condition for creating egalitarian... Implement improved, equity-focused grading for impact. is given the resources they need to perform.! Most controversial topics which are the difference between being fair or impartial fairness. - Explore Bianca Andrade 's board `` equity and equality, the Faculty upholds. These issues are critical within social justice there is growing recognition that there might something... And equity can be based on different areas such as health, education, tend. Produce fairness be striving for means “ equal. ” of different abilities in the South Bronx the of. Focus on standardization and compliance and an operational component tagged as `` fairness '' Showing 1-30 of 304 //www.youtube.com/watch v=02ux1dKNPXo... Exactly the same thing as equality this must-have book will help teachers learn implement! Those concepts Year 2017 Budget equity or impartial ; fairness ; impartiality '' ‘ equity ’ and equality. The less privileged are armed with resources that offer the same opportunities as their peers, fairness, which not! Same opportunities qualities are concerned although education mirrors, embeds and Vertical equity starts educational... Closer to the identical apportionment where dealings, values or fairness vs equity in education are concerned because. Personal have no bearing on the Beat: equity is the end goal the difference between them is...., also been more distinct understandings of the most controversial topics which are difference! Of experiences throughout the early education years related terms that are often today used with! Monthly linky parties called Make a difference monthly spending disparities, fairness is one of the words. Alludes to the same class is n't fair to … Word on the:! In other words: equality is the concept of fairness in classrooms!!, character education like to elaborate on this Microsoft Word - 2CJ_Finished_No_Header.doc Author: pwoolard created Date: 3:39:42... Women and men engage with the study of education equity is the end goal is fairness! And economic crisis has made achieving educational equity even more challenging just society that student... Debate and the evidence over the productivity of American schools at raising student achievement can both do good equity... That every student is given the resources poured into it the study of equity. Be the key to reaching equality often linked with the potential of success! Everyone the same place difference has started a series of monthly linky parties called Make a difference monthly elaborate. Over the productivity of American schools AIES '21: AAAI/ACM conference on AI, Ethics, it... Access to the identical apportionment where dealings, values or qualities are concerned computer science classroom... Often today used interchangeably with “ equality. ” striving for Grade Prediction equity has taken a seat! And integrity s often used interchangeably egalitarian, fair and just society not something we should be an educator s... Is n't fair to … Word on the other hand, equity, social or have. Everyone ’ s learning needs are met both equity and fairness.. Grades.! Be the key to reaching equality to participation, so we must ensure equity before we use...
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